Jack Reiss is one of the leading referees in boxing today. In a career
that has spanned over two decades, he's become a familiar presence in the
center of the ring for big fights in California and in many others title bouts around the
world. Originally from Brooklyn, Reiss boxed as a kid and has always held a
love of the sport.
Reiss worked as a fireman for the Los Angeles Fire Department for
31 years, including 19 years as a captain. His professional experiences with
evaluating trauma, along with his martial arts background and his rigorous boxing
training from seasoned vets affiliated with the California State Athletic
Commission, have provided him with a unique perspective on refereeing (and
judging). These aspects have helped form his distinctive refereeing
style, featuring clear verbal commands, alacrity in identifying cuts and fouls
and a thorough evaluation of fighters after knockdowns.
Reiss's success in the sport can in part be attributed to his meticulous preparation.
He keeps a personal book of refereeing from his past fights that details specific situations in the ring. He maintains an excel spreadsheet of every
fight that he's done.
When speaking with Reiss, his love of the sport and the thrill
of refereeing are immediately apparent. And while he enjoys his current status in boxing, he possesses an unyielding desire for improvement. After fights, he subjects himself
to a rigorous review of his performance that often involves talking with trusted
peers in the industry. He loves the pressure of big fights but he also understands that every opportunity to referee is a chance to improve.
In Part I of my interview with Reiss, he discusses his martial
arts training, his early mentors as a boxing official, the most difficult
challenges in reffing and judging, the concept of ring generalship, the
difference between holding versus clinching, what's in his personal book of
refereeing and his process for establishing a physical baseline level for a
fighter.
Interview conducted by Adam Abramowitz
The interview has been edited and condensed.
Jack, you grew up in Brooklyn and did some amateur
fighting as a kid. How did you originally get into boxing?
My family loved boxing. My father, who died when I was eight years
old, always encouraged me and my brother to box and play around. I got pictures
of my father back in 1928 standing on a beach in a boxing stance. But I’m
really not clear on what his level of boxing was. I do have pictures of him
with heavyweight boxers and some famous boxers from back in the day. He passed
away and [laughs] my mother’s stories always changed with time.
But I always loved boxing. As a young kid, I was playing ice
hockey and I wanted to learn how to defend myself. I couldn’t find a boxing gym
so I found a martial arts gym. I studied martial arts and kickboxing. I had
smokers in both kickboxing and boxing – really to help me with hockey. But I
dumped hockey at 17 and I stayed with boxing and kickboxing.
How would you describe Jack Reiss as an amateur fighter? What were
you good at?
I had discipline and a good work ethic. I trained like crazy but I
really didn’t have good instruction so I was way out there on my own. I had a
pretty good punch, a good right hand, but very raw.
Growing up, who were some of the fighters that you were a fan of
as a kid?
No question about it, Marvin Hagler was my idol. I loved the way
that guy kept coming forward. Accurate. He was always in great shape, all
business and one of the toughest guys out there. He could fight righty or lefty
– had power in both hands. He was just a great fighter.
In California, you can be both a professional judge and referee
and you have done both. Who were some of your mentors as you were starting out
professionally?
In the beginning it was Marty Denkin. He spent a lot of quality
time with me – quality and quantity. He helped me refine what I did. Pat
Russell also helped me along with Dick Young, Jim Jen Kin, Larry Rozadilla, Lou
Filippo. Lots of guys helped. But Marty gave me more that I can even talk
about.
As a judge and a ref what were some of the aspects that you found
challenging when you started out? What did you have to improve on?
Concentration – the number-one thing. You got to really block
everything out. You have to learn how to concentrate for three minutes, stop,
take a mental break and concentrate again for three minutes without any
distractions.
Also, the challenge is that you got these pre-determined ideas in
your mind of what you think boxing is and what you’re seeing. I was taught
professionally to know what I’m actually seeing. It’s a huge difference. I see
it on a bigger scale. I’m looking at the four criteria for judging…learning
about ring generalship, learning about what an effective punch is.
If you’re coming forward and I land a punch on your chest,
stopping you dead in your tracks. And you’re no longer able to impose your will
on me. I might not have done any damage but it was sure an effective punch
because I just took you off your game and now I’m taking control. Sometimes in
a close round it comes down to that.
One of the four scoring criteria that is controversial in many
eyes is the concept of ring generalship. It’s been defined in various ways by
different officials. In your mind, what defines good ring generalship?
Did you see the Cotto-Kamegai fight?
Yes I did.
That was a perfect example of ring generalship. Miguel Cotto
fought exactly where and when he wanted to. Do you know what the difference is
between a clinch and a hold?
Yes, I think so.
What’s the definition?
A clinch is a tie-up or a brief break in action. A hold is when
the fighter refuses to let go. That’s my sense of it. One fighter won’t let the
other fighter continue, even once the referee has intervened.
It’s not far off what you’re saying. But let me explain it a way
that might make you understand it even better. A clinch is an
offensive technique used to navigate the ring. So, Miguel Cotto showed that
beautifully. Kamegai is walking him down. Cotto is moving backward and hitting
him, making Kamegai pay for that real estate. Kamegai gets him against the
ropes. Miguel clinched, spun off the ropes and let him go. He used the
clinching to navigate the ring. Holding is stopping the action for no apparent
reason.
In 2006, you had your first international refereeing assignment in
Ensenada, Mexico. The fight was a bantamweight eliminator between former title
challenger Ivan Hernandez and ex-strawweight champ Roberto Carlos Leyva. What
do you remember about that fight and describe your feelings leading up to it?
That was a crazy fight. Absolutely crazy. Both guys were from
Ensenada and there was a lot of bad blood between them. The fight featured a
number of head butts and lots of blood.
On that note, you know what’s interesting. I’m sure most refs and
judges do this. You create more problems for yourself with your own anxiety,
wanting to be the best you can be and be perfect, that you’re nervous all the
way up until the time you walk into the arena. You worry about getting to the
arena on time. You worry that your uniform is correct and everything looks
good. You worry about getting a good meal. You worry that you’re not going to
have to go to the restroom right before the fight.
Once you get into the arena, it all settles down because you leave
all of those things behind you. You made it. You sit down and judge or get in
that ring and ref. So there’s a lot of anxiety, a lot of performance pressure
that comes into play but it’s all what you do to yourself in your own head.
As you’ve become more experienced in your boxing career, do you
have a preference between judging and reffing?
Yes, at this time while my body still holds up, I love reffing. I
love being in the ring. Someday, when the body isn’t as good, I’ll enjoy
sitting down and challenging myself to be the best judge I can be.
Do your experiences as a judge help inform you as a referee, and
vice versa? If so, how does that work?
Absolutely. As a referee, the number-one thing I’m looking for is
safety. I’m looking at damaging blows and fouls. As a judge, I’m looking at
who’s landing the harder and more damaging blows and scoring more points. So I
take that in the ring with me as a ref and I look at not only safety, not
only damage, not only taking away points, but I’m actually looking at who’s
winning or losing the fight to help me see the natural flow of this bout.
I’ll give you a great example. I’ve got a 10- or 12-round fight.
We’re in the sixth round. I can tell in my head from a judging aspect who won
those last six rounds. I’m keeping both meters going. I’m watching for safety
and fouls but I’m also watching who’s winning the rounds. So when the sixth
round comes and this guy hasn’t won one round, I’m saying to myself this guy
can no longer win mathematically. I start evaluating if he has a punch or other
factors that are involved. And the judging part of it helps. You might want to
pull that kid out of there.
One aspect of judging that fascinates me is the stamina it takes
to devote full concentration when judging five or six bouts on a card. How
do you stay sharp on a night where you’re going to be judging those marathon
cards?
I’m very appreciative that you’ve asked that question because most
people just don’t get it. The hardest part about judging a card like that is
the five, six and seven hour amount of time that you have to be on and off. If
you add to it prep time for your clothes, travel time to the arena – you’re
there an hour-and-a-half before the fight – it’s a lot of sitting around and
you get tired.
What I like to do is get up and move around between fights. I make
sure that I’m hydrated because with dehydration comes fatigue and you lose your
concentration. I know that happens to me personally. If I have to, if I’m
really exhausted on a 12-bout card and I’ve been there for six hours already
and I have to judge some fights, I’ll actually have a cup of soda or some coffee
with caffeine to help me wake up so I don’t lose concentration. Towards the end
of the night I might do that.
There’s one fight in particular I wanted to ask you about as a
judge. You were one of the three judges for Salido-Lomachenko. In that fight, there
were dozens of low blows that were allowed by the ref. How difficult is it to
judge a fight during those circumstances when the fouls perhaps materially
affected the action in the ring?
Whether it’s that fight or any other fight that you’re talking about,
I’m dictated by what the referee calls as a foul. However, if I see a blow that
hits the groin, I’m not going to call it a scoring blow, even if the referee
doesn’t indicate it. He might be giving a silent warning, you know “keep it
up,” or a soft warning without any hand gestures. But I can see where I’m
sitting that it didn’t land in a scoring area. So I’m going to not count it and
I’m only going to count what I feel are legal, scoring blows.
I understand that you keep a personal book of refereeing that
includes all of your past experiences. What’s in Jack’s book and what are the
types of things that you put into it?
That book started on day one and I have bullet points that mean
something to me. Things that I remember to do at the beginning of the fight –
the eight things I’m checking before the fight starts. It just says, “Check
eight things before the fight.”
Always hold their gloves before the fight and you touch their
gloves together instead of letting them do it, which stops them from punching
each other while I’m standing there talking to them. Things like that. Also
stuff on the inside like watch the heads and elbows before the hands because
you’re looking for head butts.
It also is a schematic to put me in the zone. Situational. I have
10 pages of a guy getting knocked down and dropped and gets hit while he’s on
the ground. The standing fighter throws an intentional punch but
misses. What’s my reaction? I’ve got slips and head butts and
mouthpieces that fall out. I go over these things mentally from the experiences
I’ve had where they’ve happened in the fight.
I was in the ring with Chris Arreola and Bermane Stiverne and
Stiverne knocks down Arreola. I was counting over Arreola and I turned my head
around too fast. I whipped my head around to see Arreola and I realized that I
was in hyperspeed. So I remind myself to slow down. Take your time. There’s a
million things in there, Adam. I’ll show you the book one day if we get the
opportunity.
But it’s situational. It helps me get in the zone I need to be in.
If I haven’t reffed in the ring in six weeks, I walk around my house going
through knockdowns. I go through different things in this book – this playbook,
whatever you want to call it – and I just walk through the scenarios mentally
in my head.
Although you are well known for doing a lot of high-profile
fights, most of a referee’s assignments are in smaller club shows. What are the
differences between the smaller four- or six-round fights and the big main
events?
Excellent question. There is a difference and one of them is that
I have more leeway in a small club show that’s not on TV. I get to protect
these fighters even more. What I mean by that is if I got a guy who’s lost
three rounds and it’s a mismatch, I don’t have to let the sauce ripen on the
stove. I can find a way to get this kid out of there and I’m not going to take
criticism by the promoter. Nobody’s going to get angry. Everybody’s going to
realize that it was a mismatch.
Whereas on TV, sometimes on paper you have what appears to be a
great match but one of the guys once the action starts doesn’t have a chance.
You got to give the fighter his due until he is no longer able to intelligently
defend himself, or it’s gotten to a point where everyone knows that it’s a mismatch.
I do everything I can to have an ending be definitive but sometimes you have to
pull a guy out.
It’s a little bit easier on the club shows. It’s a great time for
me personally. I do a lot of learning on those shows. In other words, I go to
these small shows and say, “What do I want to do today?” Today, what I want to
do is really work on my mechanics. If there’s a head butt. I’m going to go
slow. I’m going to look at both fighters’ heads. Turn and look at the chief
inspector. Signal mechanically that I got a butt and a cut or a butt with no
cut and it helps me slow down. It helps me get those mechanics so deeply
ingrained that when I’m at a big show, it comes natural. So I practice
different things on those small shows.
One aspect of your style is that you are very deliberate in
assessing fighters once they’ve been knocked down. How did that style evolve?
You’re right it has evolved. It’s come from a blend of my
experiences, but not just my experience as a fighter or a referee, but my
experience as a captain in the Los Angeles Fire Department. I was a fireman for
31 years, captain for 19 years. I was on a paramedic engine since day one on
the job. Part of the job was we would go out to view trauma –
shootings, stabbings, car accidents – and we would come upon unconscious or
semi-conscious patients. We had to try to establish a baseline of what’s normal
for that patient to assess his level of needed care. So it evolved from
understanding trauma and being able to see the mechanism of injury.
Also, I have a baseline on a fighter when I go over the pre-fight
instructions in the dressing room. I talk to the guys. I get them on their
feet. I watch them as they walk to the ring. I know what’s normal for them. So
when they get knocked down, I remember what the baseline is. I remember their
normal. I’m looking to see their gait, their eyes, their muscle control, to see
how off base they are.
I give it a mathematical number. The guy has to be at least 50%
for me to let the fight continue. He needs to be 50% of what he was in the
dressing room or for what’s normal for him so he could intelligently defend
himself. If he’s below that I’m stopping his fight.
I wanted to discuss building a baseline in a little more detail.
One fight that you did, and we talked about it briefly when we met in Nebraska,
was the recent Joe Smith-Sullivan Barrera bout. I was really impressed with
your work there. You went over to Smith’s corner and indicated that you
believed that something was wrong. Subsequently, it was revealed that he had
broken his jaw. What did you see during that bout that indicated to you that
something was amiss with him?
Adam, like Steve Smoger was telling you [in a previous interview with Smoger], and you could talk to
Joe Cortez, Pat Russell, Marty Denkin, Luis Pabon, Bill Clancy, Benjy Esteves,
Jay Nady, all of the guys in Vegas – Robert [Byrd] Kenny [Bayless], Russell
Mora, Tony [Weeks] – every one of those guys will tell you, you got to do your
homework. I had done my homework for both fighters but more importantly,
I refereed Joe Smith six months earlier with Bernard Hopkins. When I walked in
the dressing room to give him pre-fight instructions against Barrera, he wasn’t
the same guy as he was six months earlier. His eyes looked sunken. I was
worried that he couldn’t make weight. He was dehydrated. Additionally, they
changed it at the last minute from a 12-round to a 10-round fight, which threw
up a red flag to me. Who’s changing this and why? It was his corner and his
promoter that wanted to drop down. So there were a lot of indications to me
that there was something going on. And then, just talking to him, just looking
at him, I knew that there was something different.
Then when he got into the ring and dropped Barrera in the first
round… this kid never took a backward step before and now all of the sudden
he’s backing up. He’s boxing. I’d never seen that guy do it from all of the
fights I’ve watched. So round after round I’m watching this guy boxing, moving
backwards. Something was wrong. His punch output was down. He was throwing
singular punches rather than combinations. Instead of moving forward he was
moving back. It clearly wasn’t the Joe Smith I had seen on films of him and
when he fought Bernard Hopkins. I knew something was wrong.
Click here for Part II of the interview
Adam Abramowitz is the founder and head writer of saturdaynightboxing.com
He's a member of the Transnational Boxing Rankings Board.
Email: saturdaynightboxing@hotmail.com
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